tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post5978727578352260277..comments2024-03-27T19:11:37.620-04:00Comments on You Don't Say: Oh, thatJohn McIntyrehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03559687583130468871noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-56844032955933100722010-03-30T17:40:43.897-04:002010-03-30T17:40:43.897-04:00To my ears, using "that", rather than &q...To my ears, using "that", rather than "who", in relation to people sounds wrong. However, I think "that" is perfectly appropriate in relation to "a people" in the ethnic or tribal sense, as in the example sentence. "The people that walked in darkness" is clearly suggestive of "a people" as opposed to a group of people.Neil Pnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-44758253035823459852010-03-23T20:15:42.595-04:002010-03-23T20:15:42.595-04:00@PC Rob: That's because Word has no idea which...@PC Rob: That's because Word has no idea which you should use; it's merely alerting you that there might be a problem.The Ridger, FCDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01538111197270563075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-22639280568079730522010-03-23T05:27:09.071-04:002010-03-23T05:27:09.071-04:00That which is understood should be allowed to stan...That which is understood should be allowed to stand. Think about the deeper meaning and issues of life and that and which will fall by the wayside.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07785425938004410820noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-6431124213179749592010-03-23T00:35:51.568-04:002010-03-23T00:35:51.568-04:00This morning, however, I heard another usage that ...<i>This morning, however, I heard another usage that grated on my aural sensibilities: The House had "an historic vote" on the health care legislation. Hearing this frequently on radio, I just about put "an hand" to "an heart" and hung "an head" in dismay.</i><br /><br />Perhaps the reporter is Cockney?Jan Morenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06834641501438709866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-34501550769985104432010-03-22T21:53:54.755-04:002010-03-22T21:53:54.755-04:00Having read Professor Geoffrey Pullum's earlie...Having read Professor Geoffrey Pullum's earlier post, I think he needs an editor.Christopher Harperhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15490512949621455554noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-12544553261881318872010-03-22T19:10:33.191-04:002010-03-22T19:10:33.191-04:00Of course, ONLY "which" can be used if i...Of course, ONLY "which" can be used if it's governed by a preposition, no matter if it's restrictive or not. The rule of which we speak carries its own contradiction. <br /><br />2 Kings 1:8 And they answered him, He was an hairy man, and girt with a girdle of leather about his loins. And he said, It is Elijah the Tishbite.The Ridger, FCDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01538111197270563075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-7349625039072859092010-03-22T17:41:38.953-04:002010-03-22T17:41:38.953-04:00MS Word always seems to suggest the other word; If...MS Word always seems to suggest the other word; If I use "which", it suggests "that", and vice-versa.<br /><br />But this post has cleared it up for me, thanks!PCB Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-11695552154583166652010-03-22T13:09:42.297-04:002010-03-22T13:09:42.297-04:00Actually, some Brits do care about the which/that ...Actually, some Brits do care about the which/that distinction -- eg, the senior subs at (London) Times. <br /><br />I've never been able to understand their explanations in our Style Guide: I have to work on the rule that we always use that except when it's impossible.Siddershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00683584536177433003noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-77980708882142245392010-03-22T12:10:19.352-04:002010-03-22T12:10:19.352-04:00should "...mistaught if you were told that th...should "...mistaught if you were told that that my not be use..." not be "...mistaught if you were told that that may not be used..."?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-46965850370992490032010-03-22T11:59:03.095-04:002010-03-22T11:59:03.095-04:00The restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses help me...The restrictive and nonrestrictive clauses help me to understand whether to use that or which, but a high school English teacher taught me and her other students well. This was one of about a dozen lessons that I carried with me through my editing and writing.<br /><br />This morning, however, I heard another usage that grated on my aural sensibilities: The House had "an historic vote" on the health care legislation. Hearing this frequently on radio, I just about put "an hand" to "an heart" and hung "an head" in dismay.Bylinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00220555924447780658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-82234076199741261012010-03-22T11:41:09.046-04:002010-03-22T11:41:09.046-04:00I could not get the link to the "thorough thu...I could not get the link to the "thorough thumping" to work and wonder which was your preference before it and why you changed it (if you did). When I was editing scientific reports there were many, many instances when the distinction really helped comprehension (i.e., without having to use more words to make the meaning clear-- that's what I like about the lovely distinction: how it really means a lot in a very succinct way, which really helps in already long complicated sentences).<br /><br />And, since it is still considered a style issue, and your former Sun colleague (by the way, I still haven't figured out how to italicize in these comment boxes) is working with people who disagree, but obviously in the same shop, someone in charge needs to decide what their house style is and end the debate if they want to keep their publication consistent on this matter. I hope they choose to maintain the distinction if their publication is highly technical and/or meant to educate (so there is less miscomprehension), and I especially hope they STRONGLY discourage the use of "that" clauses with non-restrictive clauses. Actually, the wrongness of that usage, to my mind, actually argues for the teaching of the distinction--if for no other reason than to keep people from using "that" with non-restrictive clauses. Sure, let them use whichever for the restrictive ones if they must, but if you don't address the issue of the difference between the words, how will they know to avoid using "that" with non-restrictive clauses if newspapers aren't. The value of the distinction in meaning will be lost, and a lot of old farts who maintain the distinction for clarity will be confused or get sick of wading through all the extra text that would be necessary to make the meanings clear in any case in which it's even offered.traceychennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-59221952836292650012010-03-22T11:08:54.924-04:002010-03-22T11:08:54.924-04:00That that involves that or which is that that is a...That that involves that or which is that that is always fascinating. I'm for burning some of the whiches.Patrick K. Lackeynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-1010874039890786722010-03-22T09:07:11.192-04:002010-03-22T09:07:11.192-04:00I worked with an editor once for whom that/which w...I worked with an editor once for whom that/which was the #1 editorial peeve ... sigh ... despite her cracking the whip at me, I STILL don't think I've exactly mastered this one!mighty red penhttp://mightyredpen.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-89501948846274706082010-03-22T08:52:16.881-04:002010-03-22T08:52:16.881-04:00Please allow me to quote from the classic Robert H...Please allow me to quote from the classic Robert H. Williams column, published in the Washington Post in 1978, on what it means to be a copy editor:<br /><br />"A friend, visiting in Washington several years ago, asked me what it is, exactly, I do for a living, and when I told him my duty was to change "that" to "which" and "which" to "that" wherever those words appear, he looked at me as if I were quite mad, which may be the case after 20 years of trying to get printers to put in the fourth dot when an ellipsis ends a sentence."Steve Auerwecknoreply@blogger.com