tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post6932438935961877346..comments2024-03-27T19:11:37.620-04:00Comments on You Don't Say: Take responsibilityJohn McIntyrehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03559687583130468871noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-41055838914403312752009-08-04T09:21:46.565-04:002009-08-04T09:21:46.565-04:00What rankles most is management trashing perfectly...What rankles most is management trashing perfectly good copy desks (e.g. The Sun) while elsewhere dysfunctional ones appear to flourish (e.g. NYT).<br /><br />If you represent your work as non-fiction, get each sentence as "right" as the available sources will permit. <br /><br />Facts are indeed things, but accuracy is the congruence of various sources. Sometimes that point of congruence is stochastic, not deterministic. (Is Pluto a planet or not?) <br /><br />That's why they call it "work."Captain Nemonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-10013951095267678412009-08-03T19:51:57.368-04:002009-08-03T19:51:57.368-04:00John Cowan: No offense taken, really. But thanks a...John Cowan: No offense taken, really. But thanks anyway for your apology. Which wasn't necessary, but was still quite elegant.Peter Ames Carlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-70198289596528658162009-08-03T16:26:53.987-04:002009-08-03T16:26:53.987-04:00Peter Ames Carlin: Probably the same reason that t...Peter Ames Carlin: Probably the same reason that the NYT has David instead of a more insightful conservative commentator, or Old Bill instead of a better-informed language columnist (the man has access to excellent sources which he ignores on the grounds that they would just confuse him with the fact), or Maureen instead of a superior whatever-it-is-that-Maureen-does columnist.<br /><br />In any case, I certainly didn't mean to imply that TV columnists are, as a class, lacking in either heft or productivity (consider Harlan Ellison's columns from the 70s!), and I am sorry that I gave you that impression; I shall endeavor not to make that mistake again. (Note to all politicians: <i>this</i> is what an apology looks like: confession, contrition, promise of amendment.)<br /><br />Steve Din: It's perfectly true that we all make mistakes, and nobody knows that better than I qua computer programmer -- our mistakes are so common we give them the special name of <i>bugs</i> because <i>mistake</i> would be too embarrassing. But in all professions there are people who deliver consistently good-quality work and people who don't. Those who don't, had better make sure they have some extremely important compensating merit.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-12878932623863609102009-08-03T15:57:22.318-04:002009-08-03T15:57:22.318-04:00Correction: Hoyt mentioned all 8 errors -- not ju...Correction: Hoyt mentioned all 8 errors -- not just 7. In fact, he noted that the 8th had just been published on Saturday. Hoyt wrote:<br /><br />"But the title still had another error, which was just corrected on Saturday — mistake No. 8."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-69871490395663926202009-08-03T14:40:16.715-04:002009-08-03T14:40:16.715-04:00The thing that amazed me here is that the Times ha...The thing that amazed me here is that the Times has the staff (or the budget) to assign a "personal caddy" editor to one writer. That probably wouldn't happen at papers with staffs so short they have to scramble to finish everything.M.C.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-20376030570864360742009-08-03T13:14:57.603-04:002009-08-03T13:14:57.603-04:00I am not taking Ms. Stanley's side here, but t...I am not taking Ms. Stanley's side here, but the hypocrisy of some (I don't mean Mr. McIntyre) stinks. I'm sure there are writers all over creation who shudder when they think about things they got wrong that were caught by copy editors and checkers. I'm not talking about the New Yorker, where some exalted writers don't even supply dates. (They just write "pls chk" or some such and the person spending the week with their copy goes off and does the research.) I mean writers and critics from top magazines to shoppers who are routinely saved from embarrassment by editors and checkers. To say Ms. Stanley should be fired because she mixes up dates etc. is wrong. She should be fired for her writing, but that is another story.Steve Dinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-55101748379702331322009-08-03T13:06:51.214-04:002009-08-03T13:06:51.214-04:00Also interesting is this fact buried in the articl...Also interesting is this fact buried in the article:<br /><br />"Until the Cronkite errors, she was not even in the top 20 among reporters and editors most responsible for corrections this year. Now, she has jumped to No. 4 and will again get special editing attention."<br /><br />I'd love to know who the top three are--and how many editors they hire to give "special editing attention."Words Between the Spaceshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17427800800733923453noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-62441820338049719562009-08-03T10:26:57.029-04:002009-08-03T10:26:57.029-04:00Accuracy is actually hard to achieve. Even the mos...Accuracy is actually hard to achieve. Even the most authoritative sources often need to be checked. On that score, your article might have noted that it wasn't only the NYT that had trouble with the Cronkite obit. The AP, and many others, reported that in Sweeden, news anchors were, for a time, called Kronkiters. As On The Media (www.onthemedia.org) reported this week, there's no evidence to support this, except for a mention in a book by David Halberstam, a writer with a great reputation for accuracy, who appears in this case to have been punk'd. Halberstam was so convincing, OTM reported, that Cronkite himself repeated this erroneous 'fact' in his memoirs.rnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01115499862681364911noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-6397635276797057762009-08-03T03:43:18.196-04:002009-08-03T03:43:18.196-04:00One would hope that the major newspapers are not a...One would hope that the major newspapers are not as worried about "stars" leaving for such bad reasons...considering the number of staff writers available.<br /><br />Though I may sound exceedingly crochety and old-fashioned, there is something to be said for a publication so small and focused that the Editor-in-Chief reviews every article and more often than not, the entire editorial staff picks 1 or 2 articles to read in addition to their assigned articles. Granted, this requires sufficient editorial staffing.Ziannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-32542063184709479102009-08-03T01:20:03.932-04:002009-08-03T01:20:03.932-04:00With all due respect to Mr. Cowan and to everyone ...With all due respect to Mr. Cowan and to everyone else in this sophisticated, well-mannered discussion: The American newspaper industry already has quite a few smart TV critics who bring both intellectual heft and creativity to their craft, along with a dedication to fundamental skills e.g., getting the facts right. As a former member of the TV Critics Association (I was The Oregonian's TV critic from 2000 - 2008) I'd say there's no shortage of intellectual firepower in the tv criticism department. Think of Time's James Poniewozik; the SF Chronicle's Tim Goodman; former Dallas Morning Newser (and current blogger) Ed Bark; The New Yorker's Nancy Franklin; and on and on. All are terrific, insightful critics, which is exactly what the nation's dominant medium requires. Why the NY Times feels they have no other options is a mystery to me.Peter Ames Carlinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-71106193008242035412009-08-03T00:22:12.050-04:002009-08-03T00:22:12.050-04:00I'd be willing to bet that Mrs Couric didn'...I'd be willing to bet that Mrs Couric didn't discover those errata on her own. I've heard her talk.Patricia the Tersenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-80999838742494878722009-08-03T00:00:44.448-04:002009-08-03T00:00:44.448-04:00I might get blasted for this, but I don't care...I might get blasted for this, but I don't care how exalted a writer may be. If they continue to write articles that are full of inaccuracies and outright fallacies, they should be be banished. Unfortunately, they will resurface on the Web somewhere.PCB Robnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-116126764776522242009-08-02T22:26:46.086-04:002009-08-02T22:26:46.086-04:00The boldfaced remarks should be posted in every ne...The boldfaced remarks should be posted in every newsroom. I'd remark on how sad it is that they need to be, but that ship has sailed.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-81912393497144897552009-08-02T22:11:26.941-04:002009-08-02T22:11:26.941-04:00OK. I went to the link. This is hilarious (and sad...OK. I went to the link. This is hilarious (and sad). Most famous person in the media. Best-known paper (in the world maybe). Dear Captain, I would not fire anyone. This case only argues for my previously-stated belief: MORE and better editors are needed! We know they are available.traceychennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-39032317498116318532009-08-02T19:50:35.554-04:002009-08-02T19:50:35.554-04:00How did I get dragged into this? Are you missing m...How did I get dragged into this? Are you missing me Captain? No need to make up stuff I didn't say or think, sir. I haven't even seen the thing yet. But good to hear you are still afloat :)traceychennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-69125450202592136272009-08-02T19:11:18.222-04:002009-08-02T19:11:18.222-04:00Rob:
I'm with you.
Traceychen: Whoah! Hey! ...Rob: <br />I'm with you. <br /><br />Traceychen: Whoah! Hey! Quality...right? Quality? Come on. Fire her--and then fire the copy desk chief and entire string of editors who allowed this to happen and did not recommend that she be fired. Then fire the person who fired all of them. Then have THAT person fire him/herself. Scour the organization of poor quality.<br /><br />There are many, many, many good writers and editors out there are anxious to do good work. <br /><br />Why settle for less?<br /><br />I mean, we're talking quality, here, right?Captain Nemonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-16319132341794335922009-08-02T16:52:03.854-04:002009-08-02T16:52:03.854-04:00Robert Ofcrosskeys
It looks like there are quite ...Robert Ofcrosskeys <br />It looks like there are quite a few articles on her errors.<br /><br />http://www.cjr.org/regret_the_error/wrong_wrong_wrong_wrong_wrong.php<br /><br />Robert Ofcrosskeys <br />Wow, even Katie Couric dressed Stanley down for the errors. A NYT writer being criticized by Katie Couric is like a Michelin three star chef being criticized by Rachel Ray. The only thing that makes it worse is that it is deserved. <br /><br />http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/cbs/katie_couric_swipes_the_nytimes_alessandra_stanley_122630.asp<br /><br />Gary Kirchherr <br />I especially love Stanley's quote that when she wrote that Cronkite stormed the beaches at Normandy, oh, she didn't mean that *literally.* Classic.<br /><br />Pam Robinson <br />Couric was enjoying a little revenge, since Stanley savaged her in an article a couple of years ago.<br /><br />Rob Smith <br />This might be a bit harsh, but why doesn't the NYT just let Stanley go? Is she that big of a star that they can look past all the errors?John McIntyrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03559687583130468871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-53782197674156006912009-08-02T16:12:35.432-04:002009-08-02T16:12:35.432-04:00The key phrase from the Hoyt article is this: &quo...The key phrase from the Hoyt article is this: "a prolific writer much admired by editors for the intellectual heft of her coverage of television". This immediately puts the whole matter on a different level. Whatever her formal title, Stanley is not a reporter at all: she's a Bestselling Author, a Great Writer who can't write very well. What counts is not whether she gets it right, but that she can be counted on to put out something about TV that's more intelligent than (most of) the programming: not a hard target to hit, but difficult to attract really competent people to.<br /><br />Well, in the case of Bestselling Authors it may well make economic sense for them to have dedicated copy editors, and even dedicated <i>editors</i>, whose sole job it is to convert the incoherent mass of drivel the B.A. turns in into something the public will swallow whole and beg for more of. That's show biz. But what the <i>Times</i> is doing in that line of work is far from clear.<br /><br />It is good to see that Stanley accepts responsibility and so does the <i>Times</i>, without waffling.John Cowanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11452247999156925669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-3670255532225634432009-08-02T16:02:28.909-04:002009-08-02T16:02:28.909-04:00Actually, I would like to see an auto-da-fe on Eig...Actually, I <i>would</i> like to see an auto-da-fe on Eighth Avenue; I love a spectacle.John McIntyrehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03559687583130468871noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-56751953776565340822009-08-02T15:23:35.663-04:002009-08-02T15:23:35.663-04:00You didn't address one part, which you have di...You didn't address one part, which you have discussed in the past:<br /><br /><i>"Looking back at it all — a critic making mistakes in haste, editors failing to vet her work enough, a story sitting for weeks without attention and then being rushed through — one sees how small missteps lead to big trouble, leaving readers to wonder what they can trust."</i><br /><br />It's just the same as a plane crash.Gordon P. Hemsleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08144624867177981541noreply@blogger.com