tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post5185337030055479779..comments2024-03-27T19:11:37.620-04:00Comments on You Don't Say: Treason!John McIntyrehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03559687583130468871noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-35259545586256235952009-09-19T02:11:15.274-04:002009-09-19T02:11:15.274-04:00I demand the return of 'flang!'I demand the return of 'flang!'Patricia the Tersenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-19348233641364928732009-09-17T14:30:04.804-04:002009-09-17T14:30:04.804-04:00Defend the language from . . . what, exactly? Chan...Defend the language from . . . what, exactly? Change? Regularization? Are these in fact things that we need to defend against? <i>Lay</i> was used to mean "lie" as early as 1300, and it wasn't until 1770 that anyone thought this was a problem. <br /><br />It certainly doesn't affect clarity, so this isn't an issue of a so-called important distinction being lost. Rather, it seems that the only ill effect one suffers from using <i>lay</i> to mean lie is the condemnation of others. So this isn't really about defending the language, but rather about upholding a set of metalinguistic social values. If people want to do that, that's their choice, but I think it's important to recognize the difference.Jonathonhttp://www.arrantpedantry.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-73422642941866165902009-09-16T19:56:47.488-04:002009-09-16T19:56:47.488-04:00Irregulars tend to become regular; we complain onl...Irregulars tend to become regular; we complain only about those that do it while we're watching. When did anyone demand the return of holp. crew, or flang? <br /><br />Also, the conflation of the transitive and intransitive pair-members is happening with more than lie/lay. Google "mist raises" or "rise prices" for a quick look at that pair.The Ridger, FCDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01538111197270563075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-72298434706124895392009-09-16T02:56:41.552-04:002009-09-16T02:56:41.552-04:00The most helpful writing advice I have heard comes...The most helpful writing advice I have heard comes from C.S. Lewis (I believe!), who taught me to stop using words like "amazingly," "fascinating" or "scary" and describe events in such a way that the reader feels amazed, fascinated or scared.Mike Garnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14009045533812567087noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-28017383173735833682009-09-15T19:28:27.936-04:002009-09-15T19:28:27.936-04:00Laid/lain is nothing compared to this sentence on ...Laid/lain is nothing compared to this sentence on page 27 of "Smogtown: The Lung-Burning History of Pollution in Los Angeles" (The Overlook Press, 2008): <br /><br />"Behind them lied the sandy desolation of the Mojave high desert."<br /><br />It's not a typo for "lies"; the rest of the paragraph is in the past tense.<br /><br />To be crystal-clear: "Smogtown" is not a newspaper story edited under deadline pressure; it's a hardcover book presumably subjected to the usual rounds of copyediting and proofreading. (This error is only one of many in the book. I'm keeping score.)Fritinancyhttp://nancyfriedman.typepad.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-63558571053121085452009-09-15T12:16:35.308-04:002009-09-15T12:16:35.308-04:00Since when does English need any defense? It's...Since when does English need any defense? It's been around for at least a thousand years at this point, has changed significantly in that time, and amazingly, no catastrophes have happened. What's so special about this point in time that it requires the language be kept static? Think about whether the fence you wish to build around English is meant to keep people out or keep the language in.<br /><br />Free English!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-28592729776541448162009-09-15T11:56:56.761-04:002009-09-15T11:56:56.761-04:00More and more these days, I'm hearing "la...More and more these days, I'm hearing "lay/laying" being used where "lie/lying" would be correct. I'm starting to wonder whether people are afraid to use "lie" because they want to avoid potential confusion given its "falsehood" definition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-21118126791361316712009-09-15T10:09:06.476-04:002009-09-15T10:09:06.476-04:00"After" is typical journalese (see heads..."After" is typical journalese (see headsup for lots of examples). It's all over the place, and often results in very funny sentences.<br /><br />And, Anonymous #1? Williams addresses both those points with much better evidence and advice than S&W, and doesn't confuse the reader with all the junk. Williams:<br /><br />Be concise: Cut meaningless and repeated words. Compress the meaning of a phrase into one or two words. Prefer affirmative sentences to negative ones.<br /><br />I give Williams to all my students, and encourage them to throw their S&W away.The Ridger, FCDhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01538111197270563075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-21573968704196517852009-09-14T20:08:18.009-04:002009-09-14T20:08:18.009-04:00Yeah, Elk, but the story says "killed," ...Yeah, Elk, but the story says "killed," not "died." If he was killed after the accident, who killed him? The nurse?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-12598969944727312042009-09-14T18:50:33.886-04:002009-09-14T18:50:33.886-04:00The man in the street may very well have died *aft...The man in the street may very well have died *after* the van ran over him due to injuries sustained *when* the van ran over him. Absent medical opinion we cannot be sure.<br /><br />And why did the chicken cross halfway across the road? So she could lay it on the line.<br /><br />Retired in ElkridgeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-42733129979782320112009-09-14T16:59:05.151-04:002009-09-14T16:59:05.151-04:00It's time to let sleeping dogs lie, in or out ...It's time to let sleeping dogs lie, in or out of the manger.Patricia the Tersenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-55179266772941343872009-09-14T14:57:13.616-04:002009-09-14T14:57:13.616-04:00Delightful, Mr. McIntyre. Thank you for chasing do...Delightful, Mr. McIntyre. Thank you for chasing down the lay/lie distinction, a serious personal peeve of mine. When I was teaching, I used to TRY to end the controversy with the following: a hen lays eggs; she certainly doesn't lie eggs. But when the chicken crosses the road and gets hit by a car--or, perhaps, a van full of family members--the chicken lies in the road. It doesn't lay either at the time of the accident (well, probably) or therever more. The lesson about transitive and intransitive verbs always sailed right over students' heads, so I let it fall and lie. It has lain forlorn on the ground and seems doomed to stay there with the dead chicken. But the chicken story is, at least, a graphic mnemonic, if anyone is paying attention when one offers it.sputnikhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11636063437215380370noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-9488399581977638592009-09-14T14:16:28.459-04:002009-09-14T14:16:28.459-04:00I think Strunk & White is still valuable for t...I think Strunk & White is still valuable for these two lessons alone. In college, they made the difference between an A paper and a C paper:<br /><br />1) Put statements in positive form. Make definite assertions. Avoid tame, colorless, hesitating, non-committal language. Use the word "not" as a means of denial or in antithesis, never as a means of evasion. ... Consciously or unconsciously, the reader is dissatisfied with being told only what is not; he wishes to be told what is.<br /><br />2) Omit needless words. Vigorous writing is concise. A sentence should contain no unnecessary words, a paragraph no unnecessary sentences, for the same reason that a drawing should have no unnecessary lines and a machine no unnecessary parts. This requires not that the writer make all his sentences short, or that he avoid all detail and treat his subjects only in outline, but that every word tell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-56851423129153395132009-09-14T13:53:02.129-04:002009-09-14T13:53:02.129-04:00Pat: No lay?Pat: No lay?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-42423159070356668372009-09-14T13:49:47.179-04:002009-09-14T13:49:47.179-04:00Here's a quote from Winston Churchill that add...Here's a quote from Winston Churchill that addresses two recent topics on your blog: the verb "lie," and the history of racism:<br /><br />"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-86694534659231128162009-09-14T10:09:36.741-04:002009-09-14T10:09:36.741-04:00Agreed, there are worse things about that lead tha...Agreed, there are worse things about that lead than "laid" being used instead of "lain." Often people -- copy editors notably included -- can't see the forest of crappy writing for the trees of mistakes in grammar or style.<br /><br /> But it's just idiotic for someone to defend using "laid" vs. "lain" in the name of clarity -- you think there'd be one reader who'd see "lain" in that sentence and have any trouble understanding it? As you point out, the problem with the sentence is that it's bogged down with a series of little phrases. <br /><br /> While there might be occasions in which the correct past-tense use of "lay" might confuse those who know it only as a present-tense word, no such confusion exists with "laid"/ "lain." It was just a case of ignorance followed by silly rationalization. <br /><br />No lie.Pat Myersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6051744883907551402.post-32655579113594783422009-09-14T08:52:15.827-04:002009-09-14T08:52:15.827-04:00What people need to understand, and I think you wo...What people need to understand, and I think you would agree, is that all of this is one man's opinion. You are not the Oracle at Delphi, as much as many readers of this blog "respect your knowledge." You are just as wrong as wrong can be on some distinctions and as right as rain on others. Some of your calls on style are as idiosyncratic as the next guy's--as is evidenced in your writing style. So "a former copy editor's" criticism that you are retreating from defense of the language may be true--but so what? Capricious and wrong-headed as you sometimes are, you're still as entertaining as hell. Keep up the great work.Anonymous the Eldernoreply@blogger.com